2 Salaat, Jumu'ah & Mutawaatir

3 years 2 months ago #547 by Anwar
When I read the Quran I only find two consistent times for Salaat in particular, with a prayer during the day on Friday being mentioned and praise and glory being commanded during the clear light of the day in 30:18. The most consistent salaats are fajr and maghrib also known as Ishaa/Asheey.

Almost every description for prayer given coincides with fajr and maghrib except for the voluntary night prayer of tahajjud. Even qabl in qablu tuloo'ushams wa qablu ghuroobu-shamsi can be the 'qabl' indicative of 'in the face of' and not 'before' in the sense of before something happens.

With that said I have read many hadeeths that correspond to this idea that there are only two truly obligatory prayers being fajr and maghrib. Those hadeeth are:

1. حافظ على العصرين Al-'Asraani are dawn and dusk acccording to Lisanul-Arab
2. من صلى البردين دخل الجنة (whoever prays the two cool times, being dawn and dusk, will enter paradise)
3. أبردوا بالصلاة This hadeeth can be seen a call, with play on words, to avoid the strong heat from flaming of of the fire by praying the cool times (dawn and dusk).
4. There is also a hadeeth in musnad Ahmad that speak about the prophet Muhammad (saas) allowing conversion for someone who said that would only pray twice a day.

With that said I would like to have he non-obligatory matter of Noon, afternoon and night prayers addressed in a way that is more consistent with what the Quran truly states and what the prophet Muhammad (saas) did.

As for Jumu'ah. Lisanul-Arab says that Jumu'ah is a very Qurayshi word for Friday, which was Al-'Arubah. What would be the Quranic inspiration and legitimacy of a sermon and a two rak'ah salaat?

Shouldn't all reports be at the very least mutawaatir in meaning, even if they are about the actions and sayings of Imam 'Ali and his children?

What do you make of Al-Suyuti's and, even more so Al-Kattani's work about Mutawaatir hadeeth. Al-Kattani even criticizes a scholar who says that only lifting the hands up for the beginning of the prayer is mutawaatir while Al-Kattani tries to imply , without stating as much, that raising the hands during all movements of the prayer ,except qu'ood to sujood and vice-versa, is mutawaatir. Al-Suyuti pretty much says as much without batting an eye. What do you make of this?

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3 years 2 months ago #556 by Imam Rassi Society
Peace. Thank you for your question! Sorry for the delay! We missed it the first time.

We addressed your questions about the prayer here . So please refer to it.

As for the Friday ritual prayer, some of its ahkaam can be derived from the holy verses. The passage in question is as follows: {O ye who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday, hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of Allah, and leave off business: That is best for you if ye but knew! And when the Prayer is finished, then may ye disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of Allah. and celebrate the Praises of Allah often (and without stint): that ye may prosper. But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of Allah is better than any amusement or bargain! and Allah is the Best to provide (for all needs)."} (Q. 62:9-11) Abdullah Yusuf Ali trans.
- First of all, the believers are called to the prayer and commanded to leave off business. There is no other prayer mentioned in the Qur'an in which its calling is said to prohibit any daily transactions but this one. This testifies to its obligation.
- Second, they are commanded to hasten to the "remembrance of Allah" which could refer to the prayer as evident in verses such as 2:239 and 4:103. But it can also refer to any form of Quranic exhortation or the like outside of the prayer in verses such as 22:35 and 39:23.
-Third, believers are commanded to observe this prayer in congregation unlike any other prayer.
- Fourth, the khutba is proven by the portion: {But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave thee standing}. This indicates that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, was left standing by many of his Companions when trade encountered them. Some may say that this refers to him standing in the prayer; however, Allah would have stated {and leave thee praying} or something similar if the prayer was to be understood. Rather, the Companions left the Prophet while he was standing delivering the khutba. This is also substantiated by the books of asbaab an-nuzuul which narrate that these verses were revealed about the Companions leaving the Prophet while he was delivering the khutba.
- Fifth, this passage also proves that the khutba is delivered while standing and not sitting as the Umayyads used to do.
- Sixth, the minimum number of people who must be at the Jumuah prayer is proven by the use of the plural in the verses. As you know, the plural in Arabic denotes three or more. That is why our imams state that there must be at least three people present.
As for the number of khutbas or rakaats, these cannot be readily derived from the passage.

As for the mutawaatir reports, the scholars differ as to how many Companions must narrate a report for it to be considered mutawaatir. A report may have abundant sub-narrators but if there is a small number of main narrators, the report is not considered mutawaatir. We addressed this in another reply . As for the works of as-Suyuuti and al-Kattani, I'm not sure if our scholars consider them mutawaatir.

And Allah knows best!

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3 years 2 months ago #557 by Anwar
Salaaman and thank you for your reply. There are still some questions left unanswered.

1. Please address my questions and observations about two obligatory Salaat during the day.
2. Why do you give credence to conclusions of Asbaabu-n-nuzool works, which to my knowledge are based on solitary hadeeth and vary in their conclusions?
3. What have your scholars said about qatful-azhaar fee al-ahadeeth al-mutawaatirah by Al-Suyuti and Nadhmul-mutanaathirah feel-ahadeethil-mutawaatirah by Al-Kattaani. I would love to see some Zaidi criticism of the status of tawaatur of these hadeeth and an explanation of this work and the hadeeths mentioned in it. The one draw back of both works is that they often summarize the content of the hadeeth in question instead of quoting the actual hadeeth. Another is the subjective issue of hadeeth that are mutawaatirul-ma3aany, which is fine in theory but can depend on the interpretation of the classifier.

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3 years 2 months ago #558 by Anwar
"however, Allah would have stated {and leave thee praying} or something similar if the prayer was to be understood." This is not a strong argument and similar weak arguments can be used for the idea of leaving the prophet (saas) standing in prayer.

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3 years 2 months ago #559 by Imam Rassi Society

Thank you for your questions!
1. I would beg to differ that the Quran only mentions two prayer times. As for the verse you quoted Q. 30:18, one only need to see the previous verse to see the other prayer times mentioned. Verse 17 says: {So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach eventide and when ye rise in the morning} (Q. 30:17) Yusuf Ali translation. And verse 18 says: {Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the late afternoon ('ashii) and when the day begins to decline} (Q. 30:18). All English translations of the Quran render ashi as afternoon and not evening. You can refer to any Arabic lexicon and it will tell you that the noun 'ashi can also refer to the afternoon prayers. It says in Lisaan al-Arab:
قال الأَزهري وصلاتا العَشِيِّ هما الظُّهْر والعَصْر وفي حديث أَبي هريرة رضي الله عنه صلى بنا رسولُ الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إحْدى صلاتَي العشيِّ وأَكْبَرُ ظَني أَنها العَصْر وساقه ابن الأَثير فقال صَلى بنا إحْدى صلاتي العَشِيِّ فسَلَّم من اثْنَتَيْن يريدُ صلاةَ الظُّهْر أَو العَصْر
Besides, the references that we made in the posting about the prayer times in the Quran should be sufficient as a proof.
As for the narrations you cited, I have not found them in our corpus of ahadith. However, when examining them in context, the explanation is really quite simple. The hadith about the asrayn is narrated by Abu Dawud in his Sunan as well as al-Haakim in his Al-Mustadrak, As-Sunan of al-Bayhaqi and al-Kabir of at-Tabraaani. For the sake of brevity, the context is as follows: The narrator of this tradition, the father of Abdullah bin Fazaala said that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, commanded to observe (haafiz) the five prayers. The narrator replied that he is too busy to observe the five prayers and he asked what would be sufficient. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, replied: ((Observe (haafiz) the two asr prayers (asrayn).)) A sub-narrator said that these two prayers refer to the dawn and dusk as you said.

Now, the first thing to note is that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, first commanded that the five prayers be observed. What we must ask is the meaning of "observed" (haafiz). In all of the books in which this tradition appears, this hadith is included in the chapter about delaying and observing the prayer times. This helps us to understand the meaning of the tradition. When the Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, commanded that the five prayers be observed, he meant that we should pray them within their respective times. However, if one is not able to observe all the prayers within their times, one should strive to at least observe the dawn and dusk prayers during their times partly because these are the only two prayers that have a short window in which to pray according to our jurists. This explanation was also given by Imam al-Bayhaqi after narrating the hadith. As you can see, this has nothing to do with there only being two prayers. Furthermore, the hifz of the prayers have always referred to praying them in their times.

As for the second tradition you quoted, it similarly does not appear in our books of ahadith. It is narrated by Sunni traditionalists al-Bukhari, Muslim and others. This hadith is insufficient as a proof because simply saying that whoever prays the two baridayn will enter Jennah does not necessitate that the prayer only consists of two. Anyone familiar with hadith literature would know that there are various traditions in which a person is encouraged to do something by stating that the doer will enter Paradise. Such traditions are not uncommon. For example, there is the famous tradition ((Whoever says: Laa ilaha ila Allah will enter Paradise)). Is that all a person has to do to enter Paradise? It is also noteworthy that in one of the books in which this tradition is found, the author or sub-narrator was asked what the baridayn was and he replied fajr and asr.

As for the third tradition, I couldn't find it in our books of ahadith. However, with all due respect, it is a gross misreading of the hadith to say that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, commanded to only pray two prayers! The context is that the Companions were travelling during the heat of the day and wanted to stop to pray. However, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, simply told them to wait until the time is cooler to pray. The narrator even said "We used to pray the zhuhr prayer in the heat of the noon." This not only proves the context of the hadith but it also proves that the noon prayer is prayed. Another rendering of the same tradition which clarifies what we said is ((Pray the zhuhr prayer when it is cooler)). أَبْرِدُوا بِالظُّهْرِ

As for the fourth tradition, I could not find it. But given all of the above, it is possible that you misunderstood the import of the hadith (if it is indeed authentically attributed to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny).

2. We have no problem giving credence to solitary narrations. The only difference is that we do not base our beliefs/aqaa`id on solitary narrations.

3. As we mentioned in our previous post, I am unfamiliar with the statements of our scholars regarding these works.

Although it is true that the phrase {and leave thee standing} could easily refer to the prayer, my point is that it is not restricted to referring to the prayer. For example, we have the phrase {...and render the poor due while bowing...} (Q. 5:55). This phrase is understood to mean the prayer because when is bowing done outside of the prayer? However, {standing} is not only done during the prayer. That was the intent of my statement.

Besides, if we couple the verse in question {...and leave thee standing...} to refer to the prayer along with the verses {Felicitous are the believers--those who are humble in the prayer...} (Q. 23:1-2) and {Woe unto those who are praying but who are heedless of their prayer...} (Q. 107:4-5), it would imply that the Companions collectively left from the prayer to pursue worldly interest which is inexcusable and disqualifies them from being those described in Q. 48:29 and other verses. If you are comfortable ascribing such to the Companions, then go ahead. That withstanding, we opt for the view that the {standing} refers to the khutba and that a large number of Companions abandoned the Prophet while he was delivering the sermon.

Another thing to think about was if the Companions left the prayer behind the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny, don't you think the censure and condemnation would be a lot stricter and harsher? After all, this IS the prayer we are talking about! I'm not saying that the Friday khutba is not important but the Muslims have already been warned numerous times about abandoning the prayer so the judgement would be relatively harsher in my opinion.

And Allah knows best!

The following user(s) said Thank You: Anwar

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3 years 2 months ago #566 by Anwar
Thank you very much for your response. This interaction is helping a lot!

What I am interested in is the meanings of these words, because the Quran must stipulate the principles of the religion first. And I shouldn't have to twist or be inconsistent in interpreting the Quran to derive these principles. With that said. Consider what the Lisanul-Arab has to say about 'asheey

وأَما العَشِيُّ فقال أَبو الهيثم: إِذا زالت الشَّمْسُ دُعِي ذلك الوقتُ العَشِيَّ، فَتَحَوَّلَ الظلُّ شَرْقِيّاً وتحوَّلت الشمْسُ غَرْبيَّة

You helped me see more clearly aside the fact that 'ishaa in sense of sunset can be considered apart of 'asheey. 'Asheey means the hours of daylight after high noon.

وساقه ابن الأَثير فقال: صَلى بنا إحْدى صلاتي العَشِيِّ فسَلَّم من اثْنَتَيْن، يريدُ صلاةَ الظُّهْر أَو العَصْر

Here upon the passing of high noon to mid afternoon (usually considered the time for 'dhuhr prayer) is considered part of 'asheey. This will be come interesting soon.

وقال الأَزهري: يَقَع العشيُّ على ما بَيْنَ زَوالِ الشمْسِ إلى وَقْت غُروبها، كل ذلك عَشِيٌّ، فإذا غابَتِ الشَّمْسُ فهو العِشاءُ

Here we see that 'Ishaa is the very last part of 'asheey

Ishaa' is defined as:

والعِشاءُ: أَوَّلُ الظَّلامِ من اللَّيْلِ، وقيل: هو من صلاةِ المَغْرِب إِلى العَتَمة

So when the sun sets, into twilight until when the sun's light from the sky is totally gone is called Al-Ishaa'. This is used as a definition for the first part of the the darkness of night. His use of qeela seems to be his way of giving a definition that has been used even if he may not whole heartedly endorse the wording.

Lisanul-Arab says that Al-ishaa' can be from right after high noon to dawn: وزعم قوم أَنَّ العشاء من زَوال الشمس إِلى طُلوع الفَجْر

This seems to be an opinion that he does not support by his use of 'some people.' He seems imply that this is a minority opinion or an unsubstantiated claim, even if in currency by some during his time.

And Lisanul-Arab also says that Al-'Ashee can be defined as everything after the noon until the next fajr: وقيل: العَشِيُّ منْ زَوالِ الشَّمْس إِلى الصَّباح،

Here this implies a concept of the a daily time cycle that begins with the morning, which may be why he used 'qeela' here showing his reticence about the wording of this definition.

With all of tha tout of the way, why is 'Asr not just considered the entire time from noon to the end of sunlight. As is implied by the word.

please notice this usage as you read: ويقال العَصْران الغداة والعشيّ؛


والعَصْران: الليل والنهار.
والعَصْر الليلة.
والعَصْر اليوم؛ قال حميد بن ثور: ولن يَلْبَثَ العَصْرَانِ يومٌ وليلة، إِذا طَلَبَا أَن يُدْرِكا ما تَيَمَّما وقال ابن السكيت في باب ما جاء مُثْنى: الليل والنهار، يقال لهما العَصْران، قال: ويقال العَصْران الغداة والعشيّ؛ وأَنشد: وأَمْطُلُه العَصْرَينِ حتى يَمَلَّني، ويَرضى بنِصْفِ الدَّيْنِ، والأَنْفُ راغمُ يقول: إِذا جاء في أَول النهار وعَدْتُه آخره.
وفي الحديث: حافظْ على العَصْرَيْنِ؛ يريد صلاةَ الفجر وصلاة العصر، سمّاهما العَصْرَينِ لأَنهما يقعان في طرفي العَصْرَين، وهما الليل والنهار، والأَشْبَهُ أَنه غلَّب أَحد الاسمين على الآخر كالعُمَرَيْن لأَبي بكر وعمر، والقمرين للشمس والقمر

So here I am left with this question: The Quran seems to clearly stipulate a prayer of dawn and the first light of night (dusk). And this first light of dusk can even be considered the last part of 'asheey'

But where are the clear references to an obligatory prayer in the early parts of asheey (dhuhr and 'asr as they are commonly known as) and an obligatory prayer of the 'atamah. Atleast I can see the illusion to an optional prayer after dusk, standing, reciting and bowing.

And I can even see a Friday day prayer in 6:29 and perhaps this refers to 30:18's, which can be read in a way that it specifies the only prayer during the busy daylight hours and not at times that coincide with the night.


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