Hisham Ibn uruwahs narrations

Asalamu ala mn itaba alhudaa,

I have a doubt concerning a hukum in bihar alzakhkhar.
if you go to page 1279/2, you’ll find a ruling about whether a child who is given away in marriage has the choice to refuse once they hit puberty. The ruling is that the prophet did not give her a choice hence in that case the child cannot refuse.
the ruling seems to heavily depend on the narration from Hisham that is also narrated in Bukhari and Muslim. However I’m having doubts about the authenticity of the Hadith.
issue 1- It was reported by ibn hajer that Malik ibn anas who was a scholar from Medina, who studied under hisham and narrated many of his hadiths, did not narrate any of his hadiths from Iraq under the reasoning that he was old and his memory was weak by then. This is evident as the Aisha’s age Hadith is not in his muwatta. Similarly, Abu hanifa who was in kufa never referenced the Hadith even though he would’ve been in close proximity to it. It seems like from ahl alaaama, their two biggest scholars didn’t narrate or use the Hadith. Similarly Al shafii never mentions the Hadith, ahmed ibn hanbal narrates the Hadith but never uses it when defining the age of maturity. So although hisham is agreed upon as a trusted transmitter, his ahaadith from when he migrated to iraq (age 70 or so) are disregarded by the sunnis.

issue 2- Historically, it does not make sense that Aisha was 6 or 9 due to many factors. One being that Aisha was supposedly engaged at the time of paganism, to jubair ibn mutim who was a pagan. Abubaker did not embrace Islam until 610-613 AD, it is also recorded that Aisha married the prophet around 623AD, if she was 6-9 at that time she wouldn’t have been born or would’ve been a newborn when engaged/promised to jubair. Thats highly odd and unrealistic. There is also the measurement of her age relative to her sisters age, and some more usually cited by sunnis, and it measures her age at a more logical 17-19 years old.

issue 3- it is very unusual or borderline impossible that a 9 year old is physically capable of intercourse. 9 years old might be when puberty first starts, but the body is incapable of handling a man as it didn’t develop yet. I could only image severe harm or damage done to a undeveloped body. 

I would appreciate if you could address each of my issues and shed light on what the imams of zaydiyya have to say concerning the age of aisha at the time of marriage.

asalamu alaykum,
religionlover19

Could you please explain why you are specifically citing this particular mas’alah in fiqh? Al-Baḥr al-Zakhkhār is a vast and comprehensive work containing countless issues so why focus on this one alone?

It seems that you may already hold a certain judgment in your heart; if so, why are you asking how the Zaydis view it?

Will your view change if we prove it?In my experience, I have not seen anyone who truly has khayr (goodness) in their heart pursue and investigate this specific question.

wa salam

السلام عليكَ و على اتباع أهل البيت

“ Could you please explain why you are specifically citing this particular mas’alah in fiqh? Al-Baḥr al-Zakhkhār is a vast and comprehensive work containing countless issues so why focus on this one alone?”

It is the sunnah of mankind to investigate what confuses you, and in this case this confuses me so I brought it to you with a mere hypothesis.

“ It seems that you may already hold a certain judgment in your heart; if so, why are you asking how the Zaydis view it?”

I hope by judgement you mean towards the issue and not the zaydis, as am actively trying to understand the ways and opinions of the zaydiyah. As I mentioned earlier, I have a hypothesis and not the full picture. My hypothesis raises three main issues related to the topic and if they’re answered I can draw a conclusion. I also see that a group of people who disagreed with the hukum existed but they went extinct as per the same source.

“Will your view change if we prove it?In my experience, I have not seen anyone who truly has khayr (goodness) in their heart pursue and investigate this specific question.”

Yes I would change it. Again, I have a hypothesis not a conclusion. Furthermore, I read in another thread where IRS talked about Aishas age and he says that there are conflicting reports on whether the marriage was contracted or consummated at 9. Although it was mentioned without the source, it sheds some light of credibility on my question. Meaning that my hypothesis that a 9 year old is too young to have a consummated marriage seems to have some religious backing. Also, my intentions are pure. You only say that people who ask this question have no khayr in their hearts because it’s usually asked by people trying to disprove Islam. In my case, I’m not approaching the issue from a hostile or aggressive standpoint I’m doing so as a seeker of knowledge.

Salam,
Religionlover19

wa alaikum as-salam,

Thank you for your explanation. I take from it that you are indeed sincere.

Regarding your question:

Fiqh is not derived from a single solitary riwayah. That is not the method of the Fuqaha, and your assumption that this hukm is heavily based on a single riwayah from al-Bukhari or Muslim is incorrect. While we Zaydis acknowledge that riwayah, we also have our own sources and traditions on the matter.

More importantly, as I mentioned, fiqh is never based on just one solitary riwayah.Our Aimmah (alayhim as-salam) derive their fiqh from the Aql, the Qur’an, the Sunnah, and the ijmaa of the Ahl al-Bayt (alayhim as-salam). Only after careful research and consideration of various proofs do they reach a conclusion. Therefore, this hukm is certainly not based solely on that single riwayah.

As for your point regarding Hisham ibn Urwah and his allegedly weak memory, it is not as crucial as you suggest. While a weak memory is a limitation, it does not automatically disqualify a person as a rawi, especially if his riwayaat align with those transmitted by other reliable narrators.

Moreover, historical accounts stating that someone stopped transmitting from a particular individual are not, in themselves, definitive proof. Such statements are judgments about people in the past and rely on the authenticity of the transmitted jarh or ta’deel. Assessing their truth requires further evidence, which is why muhaddithin spend years studying this science is far more nuanced than simply saying, “Ibn Hajar said so, and that settles it.”

All the logical conclusions you presented to argue that it is impossible for Aisha to have been six - nine are based either on speculation or on riwayaat. By themselves, these do not constitute proof, and this is not how fiqh is established. Such arguments could at most be considered qaranin, but even then, only if they are supported by a solid textual basis. 

Biologically, it is in fact possible.

wa salam

Salamu alaykum,

Thank you for your reply Ibn Kamal.
You mention that there are more sources and traditions that back up the hukum, do you mind citing them? You also mention the aql, quran and ijmaa aside from the sunnah, do you mind mentioning how each is used in this case? Is there any of the sunnah narrated through the infallibles that supports the claim that she was 6 to 9?

Also relating to IRS’s mentioning that there is disagreement on whether the marriage was consummated or contracted when she was 9, what is the reasoning behind such disagreement? And who are the people who disagreed with that claim that are mentioned in the source cited above?

Apologies for the high frequency of questions,

Salam,
Religionlover19

wa alaikum as salam,

sure, this is from Al-Amali al-Ithniniyya by Imam Yahya Ibn al-Husayn alayhi as-salam :

197 - The esteemed judge, Imam Shams al-Din Jamal al-Muslimeen, and Abu al-Fadl Ja'far ibn Ahmad ibn Abdul Salam ibn Abi Yahya, may Allah be pleased with him, reported through transmission. He said: The esteemed judge Abu al-Abbas Ahmad ibn Abi al-Hasan al-Khanni, may Allah grant him success, reported to us: Al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib Al-Farazdhi and the judge Abu al-Ala Zaid ibn Ali ibn Mansur al-Rawandi confirmed: The esteemed leader and guide to Allah, Abu al-Hussain Yahya ibn al-Muwafaq billah, Abu Abdillah al-Hussaini al-Hasani, said: Abu al-Qasim Abd ibn Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Hamadhani reported to me, saying: Abu al-Hussain Ubaidullah ibn Muhammad al-Utsaifiri informed us, he said: Abu Umar Yusuf ibn Ya'qub al-Naysaburi said: Abubakr ibn Abi Shaybah narrated to us, saying: Abu Muawiya narrated from al-Amash, from Ibrahim, from al-Aswad, from Aisha that the Prophet Muhammad married her when she was seven years old, and he passed away when she was eighteen.

198 - He said: Abd al-Rahman reported to us, he said: Abdullah reported to us, he said: Yusuf said: Abu Bakr reported to us, he said: Abdah ibn Sulayman narrated from Hisham ibn Urwah, from his mother, from Aisha who said: The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old, and consummated the marriage with me when I was seven.

199 - And by his chain, he said: Abu Bakr reported to us, saying: Abu Usamah narrated from Ibn Hisham, from his father: Then he married Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine.

201 - He said: Abu al-Fath Abd al-Wahid ibn al-Hasan ibn Ahmad al-Ma'ruf bi-ibn Shayqa al-Muqri reported to us, he said: The chief judge Abu Muhammad Ubaidullah ibn Ahmad ibn Ma'ruf, through dictation, said: Abu Amr ibn Yusuf ibn Ya'qub ibn Yusuf al-Naysaburi reported to me while I was listening, he said: Abu Bakr ibn Abi Shaybah narrated to us, saying: Abu Muawiya narrated from al-Amash, from Ibrahim, from al-Aswad, from Aisha that the Prophet married her when she was seven years old and died when she was eighteen.

There are other hadith collections within our Madhab.
As for the specific reasong on this masalah:
I would need to research our scholars' rationales on this specific matter before providing a detailed explanation of how it evolved.
However, I can offer a basic overview of how it would be established.

1. Aql: This concept is not to be understood as arbitrary reasoning; rather, it involves logical and rational thought.
2. Al-Quran: The ultimate proof as it represents direct revelation. However, interpretation of its words and sentences can vary, so you need much knowledge to actually understand it correctly.
3. Al-Sunnah: This encompasses the practices and sayings of Rasulullah alayhi wa ala alihi salam. Due to conflicts in different sources and the numerous aspects involved, the specific strength of any individual Sunnah is often debated. Consequently, Sunnah is recognized as the most probabilistic of Islamic sciences, heavily reliant on transmission, the principles of jarh wa ta'dil (criticism and authentication), and speculation. This is why Salafism is weak in fiqh, as they tend to overemphasize the absoluteness of the Sunnah.
4. Ijmaa of Ahl al-Bayt alayhim as-salam: This consensus is established through the Quran and Sunnah, involving mutual agreement among Aimmah alayhim as -salam over a specific time period.

In addressing the masalah at hand, scholars utilize their reasoning, knowledge of the Quran, its general principles, rules regarding halal (permissible) and haram (forbidden), as well as the various strengths of hadith. This approach is further enriched by a general understanding of Islamic culture and scholarship. 
After consideration of all evidences, they reach a conclusion.

Regarding disagreements on this topic which the brother IRS mentioned, I am not aware of any disputes within classical zaydi sources concerning the fact that she was very young; the only discussion i know of is always about the specific age.

wa salam