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Why do Zaydis reject folding the hands when its in Musnad Zayd?
6 months 5 days ago - 6 months 5 days ago #1846
by piximp
Assalamu Alaikum
I was reading Musnad Zayd today and I came across this hadith:
Imam Zaid bin Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated on the authority of Ali bin Abu Talib (may
Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Three things indicate the habits
of the Prophets: hastening in breaking the fast, eating sehur at the final moments, and folding hands
(during prayer) under the belly button.”
Doesn't this mean folding the hands under the navel is recommended and permissible?
I was reading Musnad Zayd today and I came across this hadith:
Imam Zaid bin Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated on the authority of Ali bin Abu Talib (may
Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Three things indicate the habits
of the Prophets: hastening in breaking the fast, eating sehur at the final moments, and folding hands
(during prayer) under the belly button.”
Doesn't this mean folding the hands under the navel is recommended and permissible?
Last edit: 6 months 5 days ago by piximp.
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6 months 4 days ago #1847
by Ibn Kamal
Replied by Ibn Kamal on topic Why do Zaydis reject folding the hands when its in Musnad Zayd?
Wa ʿalaykum as-salām wa raḥmatullāhi wa barakātuh,
Akhī al-karīm,
First of all, the ḥadīth you cite is a solitary narration (khabar āḥād). Solitary reports, when standing on their own, are regarded as assumptions (ẓannī) and not as qaṭʿī (certain) proofs.
A scholar studies fiqh and its foundations for decades often 20 or 30 years before reaching the level where he can weigh evidences according to his own ijtihād.
The uṣūl (principles) of the Zaydīs are not based on ḥadīth alone. Rather, they form a systematic approach grounded in four sources:
The Qurʾān
The Sunnah
The Ahl al-Bayt
Reason (ʿaql)
The religion itself is established upon these four roots. When these proofs are brought together, they can lead to different conclusions. In this case, the folding of the hands is not established as a Sunnah according to the ʿItrah (peace be upon them).
That is why the Zaydīs do not practice this ḥadīth.
This is what the greatest Imam of our times, Imam Majd al-Din al-Muayyadi alayhi as-salam said on this question:
Discussion on the report: “Three of the traits of the Prophets …”
The report mentioned does not establish the required ruling, for it does not indicate obligation. This is because the word akhlaq (traits), as well as the sunan which the objector presumed, are broader in scope than what is obligatory and recommended.
And the ruling of this narration is like that of others: it admits the possibility of specification, abrogation, preference, etc., and such matters can only occur between reports whose apparent meanings are sound. Only those skilled in research and ijtihād can master this.
As for the beginners, who extend their claims to no avail: whenever they find a narration, they act upon its apparent meaning without investigation into a specifying text for what is general, a qualifier for what is absolute, a clarification for what is ambiguous, an abrogator for what is abrogated, an inquiry into its transmission route, or weighing between conflicting narrations, and so forth. Thus, they mount blind beasts and stumble in confusion, thinking they are doing well, as was said:
“He strikes true, not knowing, and errs, not knowing …
And ignorance is nothing but this.”
Yes, the intended meaning is that it is among the traits of the Prophets, even if within it there was something later abrogated, such as the folding of the hands (ḍamm), like the case of facing Bayt al-Maqdis, which was abrogated by the subsequent report.
And he (the author) did not say that the Commander of the Faithful used to do this, as is claimed in the Rafʿ, nor is it authentically established from Imām Zayd ibn ʿAlī that he practiced it. Rather, it is only narrated from him by those careless with exaggeration, or by those who assumed it from this report.
And the Imām (Zayd) only mentioned it in the context of fasting regarding delaying suḥūr and hastening iftār. If it had been firmly established with him, he would have mentioned it in connection with prayer.
Nor is it transmitted from him in any of the relied-upon books. Even in this narration, he did not mention it concerning prayer. So reflect, for the discussion will be completed later.
[END OF QUOTE]
wa salam
Akhī al-karīm,
First of all, the ḥadīth you cite is a solitary narration (khabar āḥād). Solitary reports, when standing on their own, are regarded as assumptions (ẓannī) and not as qaṭʿī (certain) proofs.
A scholar studies fiqh and its foundations for decades often 20 or 30 years before reaching the level where he can weigh evidences according to his own ijtihād.
The uṣūl (principles) of the Zaydīs are not based on ḥadīth alone. Rather, they form a systematic approach grounded in four sources:
The Qurʾān
The Sunnah
The Ahl al-Bayt
Reason (ʿaql)
The religion itself is established upon these four roots. When these proofs are brought together, they can lead to different conclusions. In this case, the folding of the hands is not established as a Sunnah according to the ʿItrah (peace be upon them).
That is why the Zaydīs do not practice this ḥadīth.
This is what the greatest Imam of our times, Imam Majd al-Din al-Muayyadi alayhi as-salam said on this question:
Discussion on the report: “Three of the traits of the Prophets …”
The report mentioned does not establish the required ruling, for it does not indicate obligation. This is because the word akhlaq (traits), as well as the sunan which the objector presumed, are broader in scope than what is obligatory and recommended.
And the ruling of this narration is like that of others: it admits the possibility of specification, abrogation, preference, etc., and such matters can only occur between reports whose apparent meanings are sound. Only those skilled in research and ijtihād can master this.
As for the beginners, who extend their claims to no avail: whenever they find a narration, they act upon its apparent meaning without investigation into a specifying text for what is general, a qualifier for what is absolute, a clarification for what is ambiguous, an abrogator for what is abrogated, an inquiry into its transmission route, or weighing between conflicting narrations, and so forth. Thus, they mount blind beasts and stumble in confusion, thinking they are doing well, as was said:
“He strikes true, not knowing, and errs, not knowing …
And ignorance is nothing but this.”
Yes, the intended meaning is that it is among the traits of the Prophets, even if within it there was something later abrogated, such as the folding of the hands (ḍamm), like the case of facing Bayt al-Maqdis, which was abrogated by the subsequent report.
And he (the author) did not say that the Commander of the Faithful used to do this, as is claimed in the Rafʿ, nor is it authentically established from Imām Zayd ibn ʿAlī that he practiced it. Rather, it is only narrated from him by those careless with exaggeration, or by those who assumed it from this report.
And the Imām (Zayd) only mentioned it in the context of fasting regarding delaying suḥūr and hastening iftār. If it had been firmly established with him, he would have mentioned it in connection with prayer.
Nor is it transmitted from him in any of the relied-upon books. Even in this narration, he did not mention it concerning prayer. So reflect, for the discussion will be completed later.
[END OF QUOTE]
wa salam
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6 months 3 days ago #1849
by piximp
Replied by piximp on topic Why do Zaydis reject folding the hands when its in Musnad Zayd?
Wow, thank you for your response. Where can I read his books or teachings in English?
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6 months 2 days ago #1850
by Ibn Kamal
Replied by Ibn Kamal on topic Why do Zaydis reject folding the hands when its in Musnad Zayd?
As-salāmu ʿalaykum,
Unfortunately, there is not much that has been translated from his works.
If you wish to read his books, you will need to wait for translations.
The brothers from the Imam Rassi Society are doing much work in this field and are translating more and more important works of the Zaydiyya. However, their focus seems to lie with the books of the early Imams of Ahl al-Bayt alayhim as-salam.
Therefore, I am not sure if or when there will ever be a translation of his works.
If you cannot wait, you will need to learn Arabic at a high level.
Wa-salām.
Unfortunately, there is not much that has been translated from his works.
If you wish to read his books, you will need to wait for translations.
The brothers from the Imam Rassi Society are doing much work in this field and are translating more and more important works of the Zaydiyya. However, their focus seems to lie with the books of the early Imams of Ahl al-Bayt alayhim as-salam.
Therefore, I am not sure if or when there will ever be a translation of his works.
If you cannot wait, you will need to learn Arabic at a high level.
Wa-salām.
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6 months 1 day ago - 6 months 1 day ago #1853
by Imam Rassi Society
Replied by Imam Rassi Society on topic Why do Zaydis reject folding the hands when its in Musnad Zayd?
as salaamu alykum wa rahmatullah!
Thank you for your question! We have addressed the issue in other threads as well as written an article on the issue. Please refer to it.
Also, as we said in the aforementioned article, the report in the Musnad mentions that it is from the character of the Prophets to place the right hand over the left but doesn't mention that is to be done in the prayer. The folding of the right over left can take place outside of the prayer as is related by Imam al-Bukhari in his 'Sahih'. Refer to the narration here .
As the brother said earlier, the Zaydiyya do not base their fiqh on isolated reports without consulting other reports. For example, in other books of ahadith, such as Amaali Ahmed b. 'Isa and Al-Jaami' al-Kaafi, it says very clearly that the grandson of Imam Zayd, upon him be peace, prayed with his arms by the sides and did not fold them. In the Amaali, the narrator said: "I saw that when Ahmed b. 'Isa declared Allahu Akbar in the beginning of the prayer, he laid his arms straight on his thighs while standing. And he did not lay the right hand over the left." Such report is explicit in mentioning the grandson of Imam Zayd not laying the right over the left in the prayer. If there was a report in the Musnad Zayd in which the Prophet, salla Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa salam, was said to pray with his arms folded, this practice would have been that of Imam 'Ali, Imam Zayd and Imam Ahmed b. 'Isa b. Zayd, upon them all be peace. Yet, no such report exists in Zaydi sources.
Another aspect of Zaydi usuul is that the clear and unambiguous proof is taken over the ambiguous proof. For example, the report in the Musnad mentions folding the right over the left without mentioning the prayer (ambiguous); however, we have very clear reports that explicitly forbid the practice of doing it in the prayer (unambiguous). When we couple the two types of reports, it is clear that the practice of folding the arms in the prayer is to not be done or attributed to any of our imams, upon them be peace.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Thank you for your question! We have addressed the issue in other threads as well as written an article on the issue. Please refer to it.
Also, as we said in the aforementioned article, the report in the Musnad mentions that it is from the character of the Prophets to place the right hand over the left but doesn't mention that is to be done in the prayer. The folding of the right over left can take place outside of the prayer as is related by Imam al-Bukhari in his 'Sahih'. Refer to the narration here .
As the brother said earlier, the Zaydiyya do not base their fiqh on isolated reports without consulting other reports. For example, in other books of ahadith, such as Amaali Ahmed b. 'Isa and Al-Jaami' al-Kaafi, it says very clearly that the grandson of Imam Zayd, upon him be peace, prayed with his arms by the sides and did not fold them. In the Amaali, the narrator said: "I saw that when Ahmed b. 'Isa declared Allahu Akbar in the beginning of the prayer, he laid his arms straight on his thighs while standing. And he did not lay the right hand over the left." Such report is explicit in mentioning the grandson of Imam Zayd not laying the right over the left in the prayer. If there was a report in the Musnad Zayd in which the Prophet, salla Allahu alayhi wa alihi wa salam, was said to pray with his arms folded, this practice would have been that of Imam 'Ali, Imam Zayd and Imam Ahmed b. 'Isa b. Zayd, upon them all be peace. Yet, no such report exists in Zaydi sources.
Another aspect of Zaydi usuul is that the clear and unambiguous proof is taken over the ambiguous proof. For example, the report in the Musnad mentions folding the right over the left without mentioning the prayer (ambiguous); however, we have very clear reports that explicitly forbid the practice of doing it in the prayer (unambiguous). When we couple the two types of reports, it is clear that the practice of folding the arms in the prayer is to not be done or attributed to any of our imams, upon them be peace.
And Allah knows best!
IRS
Last edit: 6 months 1 day ago by Imam Rassi Society.
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