Qur'an created vs uncreated

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8 years 5 months ago #738 by Sabeel
Salam Aleykum
I would like to know the Zaydi view about this issue and how it differ from the Asharis and Maturudis. And what are the proof and refutations from the Ahl Al Sunnah stance that the Qur'an is Uncreated.

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8 years 5 months ago #740 by Imam Rassi Society
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahma!

Thank you for your question! We have addressed the issue of the creation of the Qur'an in detail in our book as well as our translations here and here . We also addressed the topic here on the forum.

Please refer to these. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate.

And Allah knows best!

IRS

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8 years 5 months ago #742 by Sabeel
Replied by Sabeel on topic Qur'an created vs uncreated
Yes i have. I saw a article written by Sunnis. Here are some parts of the article - The truth is, as Allah is my witness and yours, that the Qur'an is the uncreated Speech of Allah to the worlds in which He mentions the taking of the Covenant from all the Prophets and their Communities and the all-encompassing witness of the Seal of Prophets over them; that the Torah is the uncreated Speech of Allah; the Zabur is the uncreated Speech of Allah; and the Injil is the uncreated Speech of Allah. And the Heavenly Books shall surely stand witness for or against all those who wrote in this thread on the Day of Judgment.
Yes, a Nobody can quote Qur'an, just like Imams Ahmad and al-Buwayti can quote it. However, the understanding of the Mujtahid Mutlaq compared to that of the Nobody is like the soaring eagle compared to a one-day gnat, although both can be said to fly.

I must also say that his protestation against the opinions of the scholars is a hollow one coming from a Shi`i, for Shi`is are notorious for their slavish imitation of their Imams' opinion, not bothering even to check the validity of transmission of a given opinion to a purported authority. That is why he is able to reject the Sunni doctrine of Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq in this matter even as he claims, "Our beliefs are based on what the 12 Imams of the Ahlul-bayt taught and endorsed as authentic Islam."
So we are to put forward a Duodecimal Shi`i's partial understanding of the Qur'an, biased abuse of the Sunna, and deficient reasoning before exemplars of the Qur'an and Sunna such as the Mujtahid Imams and Awliya' except, of course, when we mean a Twelver-Imam? - Although, to top the irony, Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq is authentically reported to hold that the Qur'an is uncreated, as indicated by Brother Ismaeel; here is the report:

Al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma' wa al-Sifat narrated with his chain from Ja`far ibn Muhammad, from his father, from `Ali ibn al-Husayn who said: "The Qur'an is neither creator nor created, but it is the Speech of the Creator."
Hear now the ironclad responses given to the Shayatin who were torturing him, given by the Imam of the Sunna as narrated by his son Salih ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal:


Questioner: What do you say about the Qur'an?
Ahmad: And you, what do you say about the Knowledge of Allah Most High?
Another questioner: Did not Allah say: “Allah is the Creator of all things” (13:16), and is not the Qur'an a thing?
Ahmad: Allah also said: “Destroying all things” (46:25), then it destroyed all except whatever Allah willed.
Another questioner: “Never comes there unto them a new reminder from their Lord” (21:2). Can something new be anything but created? Ahmad: Allah said: “Sâd. By the Qur'an that contains the Reminder” (38:1). "The" reminder is the Qur'an, while the other verse does not say "the".
Another questioner: But the hadith of `Imran ibn Husayn states: "Allah created the Reminder."
Ahmad: That is not correct, several narrated it to us as: "Allah wrote the Reminder.”
They cited the hadith of Ibn Mas`ud: "Allah Most High did not create a garden of Paradise nor a fire of Hell nor a heaven nor an earth more tremendous (a`zam) than the verse of the Throne (2:255)."
Ahmad: The creating here applies to the garden, the fire, the heaven, and the earth. It does not apply to the Qur'an.
Another questioner: The narration of Khabbab states: "I admonish you to approach Allah with all that you can; but you can never approach Him with something dearer to Him than His speech.”
Ahmad: And that is true.

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8 years 5 months ago #745 by Imam Rassi Society
Thank you for your question! One of our imams, Imam Mansur Billah Abdullah b. Hamza (as), in is Al-Ajwaba ash-Shaafi'a addressed the question of the creation of Qur'an quite succinctly. First, he said that the madhhab of the Progeny of Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him and them, holds to the view that the Qur'an is the word of Allah that was revealed to the heart of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his progeny. The Qur'an is not an attribute of Allah's Speech because if one could see, touch and hold something, that thing cannot be considered a representation of a divine attribute. Such belief is idolatry and kufr. If we say that a book is an attribute of Allah's Speech or a physical representation of such, then a Hindu could equally say that a statue of Ganesh is a physical representation of Allah's attribute of removing obstacles. Subana Allah!

The imam (as) goes on to say that the word 'created' has two meanings: makhluuq and muhdath. The term makhluuq implies something that is invented or a lie. For example, Allah says in the Qur'an {You invent (takhluquun) falsehood} (Q. 29:17) and {It is nothing but a false invention (ikhtilaaq)} (Q. 38:7). It would therefore be impermissible to say that the Qur'an is makhluuq in this sense.

As for the second meaning of created, muhdath, such is not only permissible to refer to the Qur'an but rather obligatory. This is because Allah says {And there does not come to them a new (muhdath) reminder from the Most Merciful...} (Q. 26:5). The meaning of muhdath is something that is preceded by something else. This is also evident in the statement of Allah {And before it was the Book of Musa as a leader and mercy} (Q. 46:12). This latter verse indicates that there was something that was before the Qur'an.

All of that withstanding, if the statement from Imam Ja'far as-Saadiq (as) is indeed authentically attributed to him, it is possible that he was referring to the first meaning of 'created' makhluuq. Maybe he meant that one is to not say the Qur'an is makhluuq because of the connotation of it denoting something that is invented. It is also noteworthy that the Sunni source mentioned above does not record Imam as-Saadiq as saying that the Qur'an was uncreated. So I don't see how the brother deduced that Imam as-Saadiq (as) said such!

As for the statements of Ahmed b. Hanbal, it's very odd that he denied that the word dhikr in the verse (Q. 26:5) refers to the Qur'an since most major tafaaseer (Sunni and otherwise) say that it does. It doesn't matter that the alif and lam are missing from the word dhikr; it can still refer to the Qur'an. Allah also says: {There does not come to them a new (muhdath) reminder from their Lord except that they listen to it taking it as jest} (Q. 21:2). It is quite evident that the dhikr refers to the Qur'an even though it doesn't have the definite article alif and lam. So, his argument is really nonsensical.

And Allah knows best!

IRS

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